Changes 6 Nov

[Cpt_Starfox]

"Enchanted Grove has been altered so only one grove can be planted at once"

Perhaps a good idea... but I think the timing is off and it is driving me nuts.... I can't stand it and it is almost enough to make me want to not be a druid anymore.... ok... enough rant... time to say something I hope to be helpful and explainitory... about the timing...

Seems the grove does not heal at the same rate throughout its "life span." (has been that way since I can remember... but hasn't been a prob till now)  Also, you can not cast a grove right after one goes down.... you have to wait a few seconds in which time you can EASILY die... I am a mage and have no normal healing like via bandages. I depend on grove like a non-mage depends on having banages.  I have to watch it and time it so that I keep it up all the time.  I bet I'm not the only person like this either! If it falls, and I can't get it up for a few secs... and I'm fighting something fairly mean.... I'm doomed. So... I'd like to have this fixed:

1.  let it heal at the same rate throughout its "life span" since we can only have one up at a time...
(or two for 2-3 secs... see #2)

2. let you be able to cast right after it falls.... preferably give maybe 2 or 3 secs of leyway so that you don't have to hit it exactly on time.... honestly it can be hard to keep perfect timing while getting your tail kicked and working a bunch of other spells/skills so a few seconds leyway would be nice... that would indeed alow two groves to exist at the same time on the same screen, but only for the amount of leyway time (2-3 secs), so hopefully not a big deal.

In all honesty I really don't like the grove change (cept the sparkles being gone)... I think it might be trying to fix something that isn't broke.... but I can understand the purpose and see it as.... "good".... but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASEEEEEEeeeeeee... *choke* please... fix those things mentioned before I go crazy and pull out all my hair and throw my computer out the window or or something.... ok maybe that was an exageration from exasperation.... but still PLEASE  

-edit-
PS.
I also think having two per screen without timing restrictions on when the second can be cast.... would not be such a bad thing.... we would just have to learn to time them to keep one up for a hopfully constant time... in other words.... no limit on leyway time.... just alowing two to be put up... and people learn to time them maybe.... This way you can precast and not have to worry about casting your precast too soon and loosing it because of timing being off.... that is soooo sooo (I can hardly emphasize it enough) soooo annoying   

[seterwind]

Umm.. I hate to point something out Cpt. but you should have spring of life and Greater heal to heal yourself..... As for the delay between trees being up, I think that intentional. I personally find this challenge (on my druid char Rowen) much more fun, and as a druid I also have bandages and always have because even the grove couldn't keep up healing and casting it at the same time,  lest I would never do any damage.

I think this makes for more use of the variety of spells, rather than relying on a single "do it all" spell. Really, with the grove, spells like Spring of Life and Greater Heal, while they are great spells, are virtually never used. The reduction of power of the Grove really allows the other Druid spells to shine.

[Cpt_Starfox]

Umm.. I hate to point something out Cpt. but you should have spring of life and Greater heal to heal yourself..... As for the delay between trees being up, I think that intentional. I personally find this challenge (on my druid char Rowen) much more fun, and as a druid I also have bandages and always have because even the grove couldn't keep up healing and casting it at the same time,  lest I would never do any damage.

I think this makes for more use of the variety of spells, rather than relying on a single "do it all" spell. Really, with the grove, spells like Spring of Life and Greater Heal, while they are great spells, are virtually never used. The reduction of power of the Grove really allows the other Druid spells to shine.

Ok... well.... let me clearify so I am not misunderstood....

Grove dosn't need to be compared to Spring of Life and Greater Heal and whether or not they shine.  Spring of life is pretty much a copy of Greater heal... both of which arn't really that great for me in my opinion other than for a quick heal outside of heated combat.... -edit- oops forgot something important that I use Spring of Life and Greater Heal  for (really only GH because I knew it and used it before SoL hehe) ... healing pets! Grove is no good for that... so these spells still shine on their own for me for sure! (I have no vet... no room for it either) -end edit- and this is why Spring of Life and Greater Heal are mostly only good for that....

They are one time heals.... not even as good as bandages in that respect as far as I can tell.... they are therefor not a replacment for bandages (and certainly not for grove) for those of us who don't want bandage healing... You can never hope to cast either one enough to keep you alive against anything that has any amount of real "mean-ness" to it... much less a group of mean things!!! (and even if you could somehow cast it fast enough... -and I have like +4 or 5 FC btw- then you really would not have any time for damage hehe... it'd be a casting fest lol)

And not everyone thinks bandage healing is needed or wanted... and I don't... and honestly don't have room for it in my skill set.  Grove is a wonderful mage replacment for constant, in-battle, "non-pause to constantly cast (like greater heal)" type healing that works for those who don't want bandages for whatever reason.... This change isn't fun for me and is about to drive me up the wall.... seems more like a handycap compared to others.... I had my timing fairly worked out before... and could do damage quite well while keeping grove up... now... well, I can recieve damage pretty well   

Now with that being said.... I do believe the delay was intentional... but just because it is intentional doesn't mean it is "good," and for me it seems "broken." The whole number count on the groves has a good intention to fix a "problem," but I really don't think it was that much of a problem (I could be wrong tho) because I think most people try not to get more than two groves per screen anyway... although people do make mistakes and cast them at the same time... but from what I can tell it seems more the exception than the rule to have that happen.... and therefore to me it doesn't seem like a serious problem in need of "fixing."  As I said tho... I could be wrong, and it could be happening a lot more than I see... but still, even if the grove counts stays... I think this "fix" is is need of a "fix" itself. And so again, I beg that it please be fixed!

[Aesa]

Capt, what you may not realize is that the staff deliberated for a long time and this was agreed upon by all of the staff members as a way to A. reduce lag and B. put a little balance back into the game.  I think players sometimes forget that we play on the shard as well and those changes or "fixes" that we implemented affect us, too.  Many of the staff play druids on one alt or another and so far none of us are screaming "OMG, that has to change".  It does make things a bit more challenging and you really have to play smart now instead of just sitting there and letting 12 dragons munch on you.  Time to rethink your strategy and use your grove when you really need it and not cast it before you even have one hit point reduced.  And don't forget the important of running!  If you were in a bind before you just cast grove or multiple groves and were saved in 2 seconds.  Now, run, heal, regroup and go back.  Or let your pet take some of the damage while you have time to heal up.  I have a druid and have tested the new grove with my player.  It takes a bit of getting used to, but I'm up for the challenge of learning new techniques to stay alive.  What's the worst that'll happen?  You'll die and lose what isn't insured.  That rarely happens on this shard as we have the friendliest, most helpful player base I've ever seen and you'll find at least one person that's willing to come lend a hand to get your stuff back.  And if you're insured your good stuff, then you may lose reagents, water pitchers and current loot.  No big deal!  It's easily replaced after killing a few monsters with good loot.

[Jager]

I would just like to say that I am glad that the grove has been altered in this way. Before It was way too powerful and got players into trouble that they weren't ready to handle yet. Plus the lag issue is nice.

Jager/Shane/Phoenix

[tomb]

thank oh great ones ....   there are too many times that too many trees can cost you your life in game .  and thank you for the other additions as well.

[Loff'ta]

The changes that have been made with the grove spell, in my humble opinion, are long overdue. It definately makes things much more challenging for your typical druid, which I think is wonderful!

If you cannot handle whatever you're hunting without constantly casting the grove spell, then maybe you need to change your hunting techniques to adapt.

I personally never relied on an enchanted grove while hunting alone with my druid because of the lag factor. The main time I use it alone is after I've retrieved my belongings when something has eaten me and I'm in a hurry to die again to it!

*Monsters need to eat to you know!*

The most effective way that I've found for using the grove spell is during group hunts. When you have warriors pounding down something that is trying to kill you and your little pet too...and anything and everything else in the line of sight!

You're really limiting yourself if one spell is the determing factor on how you successfully hunt. There are tons of options out there for players. You can always get better armor, use potions, hunt with groups, or utilize other skills etc... to make your hunting experience more enjoyable.

If, after doing all that you find that you still cannot slay something you use to kill easily before the changes made were implemented, I'd advise hunting something else. Because that just proves the spell was "too powerful" and needed to be modified in order to provide more balance for the shard.

I, for one, am grateful for anything that helps to reduce lag and makes the game more challenging. But then I don't mind dying either...lol.


*BTW-Thank you skygud for noticing Loff'ta is not Rithik. Plants some crepe myrtles and puts the fires out.*

[toddp0168]

I have to agree that the grove fix was a necessary fix.  Too many times I would see anywhere from 2 - 4 trees up at any given time during hunts.  That is just not reasonable.  Now, you have to gauge when it's going to run out and precast at the right time to drop it down when it poofs.  I personally never really "need" a grove up when I'm hunting on my druid.  I just use one if I'm going to be casting lots of swarms or volcanoes for the mana regen.  I for one am glad to see this fix.

[Cpt_Starfox]

Ok.... I think it was well balanced before. And, it was chalangeing before and I enjoyed it... now I do not enjoying it and do not ejoying hunting which is a big reason I play...

I don't use pets most of the time I like doing it myself. (though I heal others pets)

Players have bunches of stuff fight them without Grove and they win.  They use bandages.  I don't use bandages, I use grove and now that it is different, it serverly handycaps me. I used to be able to fight about the same as people using bandages and have about the same amount of things fight me... I don't even care to try that now... I can't even enjoy a good solo hunt anymore... I'm just depressed.

And... telling me I should change how and what I fight? And that just because one "little" change can break my char means the spell was too powerful and I have "poor" fighting skills to depend on it???  Oooook, so suddenly not being able to heal in the mist of heated combat shouldn't affect me any?  I don't care to be fored into using bandages and changing my char template just so that I can have constant healing like bandages.

Limiting groves per screen is a good idea to reduce lag and help people play smarter... but this timing thing is a handycap that breaks my char.  Maybe I'm one of kind in my style of fighting, but it shouldn't mean I'm weak and need to rethink my template to be more like everyone else    As far as it being more chalanging... oh ya I bet it is indeed! Take away bandage healing or handycap it serverly and see how chalanging things become... chalange doesn't always = good game. Sometimes it just = agrivating pain.  This all may be fine for many people... and I'm sure if you took out the chivalry teleport spell then many people wouldn't care because you can still use magery teleport for goodness sake!  But, the paladins would raise cain I bet!  That is a non-battle non-hunt affecting spell example for the most part.... now this change affects hunting and fighting... so of course it is pretty agrivating for me a person who loves hunting and fighting.  

"I would just like to say that I am glad that the grove has been altered in this way. Before It was way too powerful and got players into trouble that they weren't ready to handle yet. Plus the lag issue is nice. "

Jager... you can handle just about any reasonable thing or group of monsters solo without grove anyway.... (maybe that means you're healing and stuff is too powerful and needs to be balanced.... not in my opinion) And... who cares if we want to get into trouble we can't handle?  If we want to be crazy then we can! I certainly do LOL.  And, by that very statement you are saying in so many words that the spell is not too powerful because it does not allow players to take on stuff that they shouldn't be able to... hence they get into trouble they can't handle even with grove!  And the lag issue  is nice.... I'm not talking as much about limiting it per screen (although I am to some extent... I think it should be 2)... I'm talking about the timing (which would be fixed possibly by allowing 2).


"You're really limiting yourself if one spell is the determing factor on how you successfully hunt. There are tons of options out there for players. You can always get better armor, use potions, hunt with groups, or utilize other skills etc... to make your hunting experience more enjoyable. "

Limiting myself because I like to be able to heal without bandages?  Some people like to heal with bandages and without grove... they aren't said to be limiting theirselves.... And Yes, it is a determining factor! Of course it is! It is healing for goodness sake! You can hardly effectly hunt if you can't effectivly heal! 

Let me address each of these...

better armor: Have you seen my armor? It rocks... but it is good... but this hasn't helped me make up for this new handycap...

use potions: I use a two handed weapon.... kinda hard to drink potions... I depend on my weapon heavily... of course what warrior doesn't lol!

hunt with groups: not everyone is a group hunter, and should not be forced to be so. True, they might not can take on some things outside of a group... that is natural and their choice.  I myself like solo hunts and very small group hunts.  I don't like large group hunts... and I give up fighting some things because of that... it is my choice.

utilize other skills: My template is very diverse... about 11 or 12 skills and I use them all! And most all of them are for battle... however, I do not have healing via bandages and should not be forced to have it in order to be able to fight like other people.

Maybe I'm the only one in this whole world who doesn't like this because I have a very non-typical druid or something....  and at this rate I'm probly one of the last of my kind.  I loved being unique... until now... and now I'm handycapped and can't stand it.  This choice for change probably was thought about a lot by staff, but I think it needs to be considered some more.... You can consider this first attempt a test run... well it has been and is being tested.... and here is one person who is pointing something important out which may or may not have been considered before... it happens, you can hardly forsee everything and hardly know how it will affect everyone just because some people tried it and liked it, doesn't mean it is perfect and I'm sure you know that already.  Again... this bears repeating... addressing the lag issue with a grove count can be a good idea... but maybe make it two in order to fix the timing... or just fix the timing and the healing rate please.

I'm not trying to be mean or completly one-sided on this.... I see the good in it... but I also see this glaring bad and I'm only begging to have it changed and trying my best to present my reasons as clearly and convincingly as possible.  Yall do a god job running this place and I thank you for it. You are kind and care about players and listen to them, and I have paid many complements to various people I know about how good this place is... so please hear me now and help me... please do not turn a def ear to my plea thinking that I am only one annoying player who just doesn't consider what is he talking about and doesn't see what you are trying to do for the good of the shard.  I know you are working for the good of the shard... and so am I too in what ways I can.  Pleaing for this to be changed is one thing I can do to help the shard for good amoung the other things I have done and am doing.  You the staff and admins should know me well... and know just how much I love this place.... I care about the shard as a whole and I care very much of each individual in it.  I sincerly hope you re-consider this and help bring back my enjoyment in playing on this shard.

[gypsy]

This isn't meant to complain but just my 2 cents ok   You guys  have been doing great things with the shard and its great when you cut out the lag when you can
But.........weren't we dieing enough already? *Giggling*
Seriously tho the  length of time the grove is up is too short for those of us that need it in a bad spot and have to run back and hope our pets dont die in the time it takes us to run heal and run back and then have to wait a minute for another grove hoping we can get the pets healed in time to be able to cast spells again. Yes I have potions and yes I  use other spells as well but without the grove to help me in a bad spot i'm hurting   I'm also one of the ones that cant heal with bandages in order to use other skills.
Maybe you could make it 2 groves with the timing or make just 1 grove a little longer lasting?
However you can make it just keep up the good works
Thanks for listening
P.S. I dont use the grove unless a bad spot or rezing people .

[Mirage]

oh my goodness. I swear. Whiners *pokes them* I think it's a great Idea for the groves. Though I will slightly agree that maybe, since you can only have one per screen, their life span should be a tad longer, this gives druids a chance to actually be played out properly and not lean back on full support of groves..or several groves for that matter. Though I find it a lil strange that there is only one per screen I am thinking this as to less lag issues. We can all agree that is a yeahie in the department.  I also see this as a way to nudge players to hunt together, which is also a yeahie. Group hunts with friends are fun!

I also noted that there was a change to fishing or is that just me? 

[Cpt_Starfox]

I did some re-thinkg... trying to see all points of view... and consider the idea of longer groves...

My conclusion:

Yea we die plenty already! lol
longer groves won't help... this is because it doesn't heal at the same rate throughout its "life span" and the delay between groves in combo with that.... well that is what is hurting.

Another solution:

Having reconsidered this... and re-thought the working thereof...

If you made groves heal at the same rate through thier "life span" and then allowed people to recast groves right after one falls (no delay)... that would fix it I think... You wouldn't need any leyway time (the 2-3 secs I thought of before) because it would be healing the same through its "life span," and, you  wouldn't even need two per-screen for the same reason.  Just watch the grove and when it falls have your pre-cast ready or be prepared to die!!!  And for goodness sake don't cast while it is still up or you'll have to re-precast and might not make it in time!


"Whiners *pokes them* "  heeeey... meany    no more fish for you kitty!  j/k hehe *pokes back* ha!

-edit-
I use grove in tight spots... I love putting myself in bad spots lol... might be a pain at times,  but ultimatly I love it... fighting things so mean that I can die even standing in the middle of a new grove!  I get rezed and come right back to it! ... or go get a friend to help hehe.
-end edit-

[Crimson]

Personally I don't mind the changes at all. Besides, this shard is free to play and it has the best staff and player base ever, which makes it all the better. Yeah it was nice to recast trees when you knew your first set was about to fade, but this change spices everything up.

The main reason I use trees is for the mana regen benefit, the healing part is just an added perk I think which is very nice in certain situations. My main is a pure druid/tamer and I have yet to socket anything I own, mostly because I haven't decided which gems to use yet. So I rely on trees quite a bit, but even with these changes I can work around them quite easily and if I can't, like Aesa posted, I run. If I don't run quick enough or not at all then I die. Oh well, then I make the best of it and if I really can't get my items myself then I ask for help. 9 times out of 10 there is someone around to assist that is more than happy to help.

I'm just content with the fact that trees were limited per screen and not serverwide. 

[seterwind]

Captain, I'm very curious of your build. You mention about a lot of things you can't get because it's too full.  I'm a warrior smith on one char. I have mining and smithing, and able to tank near as good as Phoenix.

I have Rowen who is a warrior druid, who is not effected what so ever by these changes, and can tank as good as my warrior and has a grove and some killer pets, and vet.

If you don't like banadages (and from your seeming complaints about how warriors can use them) they are the only way warriors have to heal, unless they have necromancy or magery in that case, they still shell out and train up 100 healing to be able to use them... because it's the general concencous that it's the best way to heal.

I am curious on what your char is supposed to be, since you have the min req for druids but don't use pets often, I find that you are very much just a druid warrior for just the grove. Which is kind of going against the point of a druid... I'm sad to hear this change has altered greatly your standard way of fighitng, but adapting and perhaps incorperating new styles would be good.

Potions can be used with razor if you check (Unequip and reequip for drinking potions). If you don't use razor you can make a macro in game (un equip, equip last use last item) to do it as well.

Or you can get Hit point regen armor. Armor of the Fallen king does wonders I believe... there are a lot of other options other then Healing, or using a pet to tank for you and such.

[Loff'ta]

Druids are basically tamer/mages.

Prehaps this is why those skills are needed in order to hold a druid staff, which has to be held in order to cast any of the druid spells.

My druid is a mage/bard/tamer.

The only time I use bandages is to heal my pets.

My barding skills have saved me more times then any laggy trees ever have and the effects are instant, unless of course I fail.

Druids that have healing generally also have fighting skills, which allows them to use a druid staff as a weapon.

Most of the druids I know use pets and magery in battles and do well.

They basically use the groves for aiding in mana regeneration, not prodominantly for healing themselves.

To me it's quicker to down a greater heal potion and run, if needed, then to cast enchanted grove for healing.

Using potions while battling is not an issue if you use razor and check the option to auto un/re-equip hands for potions.

That being the case, I don't really see why anyone would place so much emphasis on one druid spell.

As I said before, you're really limiting yourself if one spell is the determing factor on how you successfully hunt.

There is more then one way to heal and more then one way to hunt.

If you have good armor, good stats, a good connection, and use the numerous resources available to you in the game, then you really don't need to use trees in order to hunt.